Brexit: Europe is falling into the abyss
Interview with prominent Russian geopolitician Alexander Dugin
– The main question is “what’s next”?
Dugin (D): The UK’s withdrawal from the European Union is an event of colossal importance. The whole architecture of the world is changing, because it is not just one of the European countries, it is one of the poles of European civilization. And if England says that it is out of Europe, out of the EU, that means that the EU’s value changes. The most important thing is that no one will allow a Europe without Britain. We can say that it is the end of the civilizational space.
– Is this event a revival of English chauvinism or just a number of problems that they had in recent times?
D: England has neither the resources, nor the desire, nor the ability to play a real big role. The center of Western civilization was placed in the United States after World War II. What we were seeing in Europe in the 1970’s-1980’s, when the process of European unification started, is not a European will, it is the will of the Atlantic civilization, centered in the United States. The Americans decided to place the European Union under its control, and today, in fact, they dismiss it. And England was the most loyal pro-American pole within the EU. If England is no longer in the EU, the Franco-German continental European Union is not needed.
– Is it a call from Britain to the European Union and the Americans that it wants to play by these rules?
D: The rules of the global world cannot be violated by any sovereign states, especially an England that is not a great power anymore. In reality, the world management capacity is only in the United States. England may be dissatisfied with certain things; it is its private business, a sovereign right. But if the global world elite made a Brexit possible, it means that tomorrow could see a France, Germany, Italy withdrawal from the EU...
I do not think it is possible to return to nation states, as it was in Europe under the Westphalian system. We are talking about something else. No one will allow a Europe in the same condition that it was before the beginning of the integration process to exist. I think we can see further very scary processes for Europe, a real civil war. As the British are out of the EU, but they are not out of the migration policy crisis, which will continue to attack, it is not out of ultraliberal values.
In my opinion, the British did not suffer much from Europe. Yes, they did not like some things. In fact, the EU without England is a different European Union now. If it would be preserved without England, if it began to move towards truly continental European interests, it would have a chance. But this will not simply happen.
– Do you agree that Italy, for example, is not ready for such events?
D: If we asked the Italians today, they, of course, would leave too. And we know that the Northern League and Five Star Movement call for it. We must face the truth: the European Union is falling apart; it's the end of the Tower of Babel, based on the Atlantic geopolitics and liberal system of values.
You have to know when you should hold a referendum. If you give people too much power, they will vote for what they want. So the British were able to gain this referendum and leave. If now the people of Europe were given such an opportunity - the Italians, the Germans, the French were to vote for a withdrawal from the European Union - I think it would happen the next day.
- Talking about the referendum in Scotland two years ago, it voted against leaving the UK, and its leadership clearly hinted that a new referendum on independence is not far away. Is that possible?
D: The Scots have some anxiety towards the British. They suffered a lot from English racism, as well as other Celts, the Irish, who are also currently talking about unification. There cannot be a return to English nationalism. The Scots were in favor of Europe as a defense against the British, which annoyed everyone in the world with its Anglo-Saxon imperial policy. Britain is not just leaving the EU - it is disappearing from history. But England, Cameron’s fate, the fate of Scotland and a United Ireland is not the most important thing. We are watching the end of Europe, something that Spengler and our Slavophils said. Europe is falling into the abyss because of its ultra-liberal ideology, and I think that the soft way out of this situation - to dissolve the European Union - will not work.
– People face the collapse of everything, and they still blame Russia: again we can see who is responsible for it.
D: It is quite a surprise, but they are right, and at the same time as Brexit, Tashkent is creating an alternative center of a multipolar civilization - the SCO. This is more than half of the world - it is the vast majority of the population and is a nuclear power. India and Pakistan joined the SCO, and Iran partially agreed to join it. What is happening today: Brexit and the SCO, which is becoming an important force, are shifts in the center of civilizations, the center of the world order is completely in the other half of the world. This is a transition from the West to the Eurasian world. It is, in fact, our celebration. The founders of Eurasianism said: “The West and the Rest”. Brexit is the collapse of the West and it is a victory for humanity, which is opposed to the West and seeks to go its own way. And the flagship of mankind is the SCO, Russia, the current sovereign free multipolar Russia led by Putin, and those who are in the Eurasian Club.
Ordinary people understand everything properly. They cannot explain it, but I feel that there is some deep asymmetry between the political elites and the interests of ordinary people in the world. The elites impose their agenda, and people want something completely different. People intuitively understand that today England was freed from the diktat of the European Union, Brussels, and tomorrow the other European countries will follow its way. And we are not far off the day when the people begin to follow their own destiny.
– There is a proverb: there is no European Union without Britain, as there is no NATO without Germany. Is it true?
D: Germany is a much more difficult case. They have less democratic freedoms and there is more American policy influence. And if England is a voluntary US ally, Germany was forced to become one, thus it is dangerous to talk about its withdrawal from the EU. However, now there are many politicians that are wildly popular and will be even more popular. This is Alternative for Germany - Frauke Petry, the leader of the party, rejoiced and praised the British, who gave them an example of the output. NATO is the next. Some leave the EU, others – NATO, as the West has lost its image even to itself.
– Is this the end?
D: Now the EU cycle has passed its noon, sunset begins. This does not mean that it has already occurred. People who understand the trend are definitely not calmed by the reassurance that nothing bad is happening - it can still be fixed. But those who understand the trends, they know that it happened and are already thinking on this basis. For analysts that are forecasting on a global scale, the EU is over. And it is irreversible. The British cannot re-vote. The critical point of Europe’s decay has passed.
– What should we expect?
D: Europeans need to prepare for color revolutions and the EU’s disintegration. We must be ready to defend our current recovery and the strengthening of our global alternative pole. It will not be easy. It should be understood that the West is like an agonizing beast, a wounded dragon that can hit us with its tail. So now we have to be calm, confident, and determined to fulfill our goal. This is our win in the battle, but it is not the victory in the war.
We must follow out way, to build a multi-polar world and to defend our interests, taking advantage of any events.